I refer the reader again to http://www.prophetofdoom.net/ which provides definitive references to Mohammedan teaching and should persuade the careful reader once and for all of the dangerous an vile nature of this religion.

It is highly doubtful that the reform Mr. Wheeler calls for is even possible so long as the substance of the teachings of this religion continue.

Wheeler makes the case against Islam pretty plain. It is a shame that he punts at the end, but that presumably is what one must do to remain welcome in polite society.

Salvation for Moslems is the same as for all the rest of us: acknowledging Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. The values Wheeler ascribes to Civilization are those of Christianity, arising from the fusion of divine revelation, Hebrew religion and spirituality, and Greek and Roman political philosophy. A Christian Middle East would not be a garden spot (largely Catholic Latin America is mostly a shambles), but it would not be the incubator of murderous violence that the Moslem Middle East actually is. Whatever the ADL and AJC might think, Israel’s future would be far safer with Christian neighbors than Moslem.

If what Whittaker says is true, there is an extraordinary evangelical opportunity arising. I wonder; Moslems have always been pretty intractable about their religion. Can Christian churches in post-Christian societies summon the missionary zeal to preach the Gospel to the Moslems? One would think the Roman Catholic Church, with its vast numbers of communicants and its global spread, would lead the charge. As our current pontiff seems to prefer kissing the Koran to condemning what it says, I’m afraid we may miss what opportunity there is.

If, as Wheeler says, Islam is slipping (I hope he is right), how truly orthodox the next pope is becomes even more important. HRS

As to whether Islam is reformable, I believe we have at least one positive example in the case of Turkey, and awareness of this was heightened at the recent spectacle of the chief Islamic religious official joining the chief Rabbi at memorial services for those killed in the synagogue attack. The father of one of the killers, a muslim, also appeared to apologize and bemoan the misguided actions of his son. However, Turks seem to be far less messianic or fanatical in their religious attitudes than the semitic Arab peoples, and what Ataturk had to do to secularize Islam was extreme, down to banning items of traditional clothing such as the fez. Iraq may offer some grounds for hope: it has apparently long been the most secular Arab society, perhaps due to the necessity of balancing off Shias, Sunnis, and Kurds.

I will not hold my breath until the Muslim world converts to Christianity (which brand?) Thucydides is right to praise the effective reforms in Turkey. By the way the fez was not, contrary to myths widespread among Muslims and Westerners, a traditional hat, but an item that appeared in North Africa in the nineteenth century, Ataturk’s real breakthrough was the abolition of the veil for women. While its use had decayed for quite a while in Turkish cities, in the villages of Anatolia outlawing the veil was about like making Western women run around topless!

Mr. Levine,

I won’t be holding my breath either. As for which brand, why, Catholicism, of course!

One question to ask about Turkey (I do not know the answer) is how much that country’s secularism is now part of the fabric of life and how much is due to Kemalist officers’ keeping a lid on Islamism. Islamists are winning Turkish elections. Given that suicidal “Europhiles” like Chirac want to welcome Turkey into the EU, it’s a pretty important question. HRS

Wheeler fails miserably in his attempt to bash Islam and Muhammad. There are better researched and more complete work on the Life of Muhammad if one takes the opportunity to read.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/people/features/world_religions/islam_life.shtml

http://www.pbs.org/muhammad/timeline.shtml

My question is… What is Wheeler trying to gain or achieve with his bashing and slander? Conversion of Muslims to Christianity? LOL

Authoritative works should be obtained by those who are Muslim or from Islamic centers, not from those who don’t know anything about Islam except the bigotry spouted by those that hate without correct information.

If any are inclined to read the Quran and find out what it REALLY says, other than just the few Suras posted in Wheeler’s article, there are plenty of translations on the net. One of the best and easiest formats is at www.jannah.org… click “Quran”.

It would be wonderful if people would learn the truth about the subjects they attempt to bash before spreading misinformation and their own hatred.

Peace be upon you all.

I would like to ask A’la Yusef some questions. First, let us concede for the sake of discussion that Wheeler’s article and other articles like it present a one-sided and unfairly negative portrayal of Islam. Let us concede that Islam has many positive and higher aspects that Wheeler ignores. Would it not still be the case:

(1) That Islam stands for jihad, the use of coercion and force to absorb more and more lands into the Islamic fold?

(2) That Moslems are religiously required to seek to impose Islamic law in whatever country they are living in (though the requirement may be temporarily lifted in specific circumstances)?

(3) That no land that has ever been once a part of the Islamic community, the dar al Islam, can ever be allowed to return to the non-Islamic world, the dar al Harb?

(4) That the punishment for a Moslem who converts out of Islam is death?

(5) That a very large part of the Moslem population of the world supports Wahabbism and terrorism?

(6 That even if a majority of Moslems are not Wahabbists or fundamentalists or terrorists, (a) many of them sympathize with those movements, and (b) the fundamentalist and radical part of the Moslem population always seeks to play a dominant role and thus intimidates more moderate Moslems? and finally

(7) Given these facts about Islam, wouldn’t it be a prudent course for a non-Islamic country that wishes to remain non-Islamic to cease all further Moslem immigration and to deport as many radical Moslem immigrants as possible?

I would like to ask A’la Yusef some questions. First, let us concede for the sake of discussion that Wheeler’s article and other articles like it present a one-sided and unfairly negative portrayal of Islam. Let us concede that Islam has many positive and higher aspects that Wheeler ignores. Would it not still be the case:
(1) That Islam stands for jihad, the use of coercion and force to absorb more and more lands into the Islamic fold?
Reply: I usually don’t continue to debate these issues for it is expected that the learner should pick up and learn from where the “instructor” has guided them. However, since I have visited this site again and it appears your request is sincere, I will entertain your questions with the understanding that I am not a scholar of Islam.

No, Islam does not stand for jihad. In fact, “Islam” stands for “submit”- that is submitting to One God, the One God that is the Creator of the Universe and all that it contains, from the minute to the grand; a God without partners. One cannot be coerced or forced into Islam for this is against Islam. The Arabic word “Jihad” translates to “struggle”, not into the much-misconstrued words “holy war.” “Jihad” and “Tijihad” means the struggles with ones self to follow the path of Islam – peace and self discipline.

(2) That Moslems are religiously required to seek to impose Islamic law in whatever country they are living in (though the requirement may be temporarily lifted in specific circumstances)?
Reply: This is absolutely incorrect. In fact, Muslims are religiously required to abide by the laws of the land in which they live.

(3) That no land that has ever been once a part of the Islamic community, the dar al Islam, can ever be allowed to return to the non-Islamic world, the dar al Harb?
Reply: This is also incorrect and many countries exist today that were once a part of the Islamic Empire such as Spain, Israel, and parts of India.

(4) That the punishment for a Moslem who converts out of Islam is death?
Reply: True, it is written that the punishment for those that leave Islam is death. This is also a part of Judaism and some sects of Christianity, particularly in the West African and tribal Middle Eastern countries can also suffer the same fate. However, keep in mind that the carrying out of the sentence is rare and subject to the laws of the country in which one lives.

(5) That a very large part of the Moslem population of the world supports Wahabbism and terrorism?
Reply: False. Wahabism, or thoughts from the school of Hanbali, represents a very small population of Muslims. This sect of Islam is very fundamental, much like evangelical Christianity and Orthodox Judaism. One basic aspect of Islam is fairness and justice. A very large part of the Muslim population support these two fundamental aspects of humanity.

(6 That even if a majority of Moslems are not Wahabbists or fundamentalists or terrorists,
Reply: A majority of Muslims are not Wahabi nor fundamentalists nor are they in any shape, fashion, or form “terrorists.” The majority are interested in the same aspects of life as any other; service to God, charity to the needy, and enjoying raising their families to be good citizens of their country.

(a) many of them sympathize with those movements, and\
Reply: Many Muslims sympathize with justice not with radical movements.

(b) the fundamentalist and radical part of the Moslem population always seeks to play a dominant role and thus intimidates more moderate Moslems?
Reply: The fundamentalist or radical parts of all religions are dangerous to all people of moderate and intellectual preparedness. This is why there are many in all societies who refuse to voice affiliation with religions of any sort.

(7) Given these facts about Islam, wouldn’t it be a prudent course for a non-Islamic country that wishes to remain non-Islamic to cease all further Moslem immigration and to deport as many radical Moslem immigrants as possible?
Reply: To which non-Islamic country are you referring? The “facts” that you’ve presented have been dismissed with logic and the basic knowledge of Islam, which is required in debate of all Muslims. The scenario to which you are referring is also radical in nature in that it presents a discrimination against people for having a particular religious affiliation. It would appear from your question that you have some sort of axe to grind against immigrants. Issues of immigration and deportation are rarely understood by the general population.

Well, it’s certainly a relief to get the real truth from Mr. Yusef. It turns out that Moslems just believe in fairness and justice. I’m so glad to hear this. Now I realize there’s nothing to worry about. All those things I’ve been hearing about endemic violence wherever Moslems encounter non-Moslems from the Balkans to Indonesia, all the things I’ve been reading about “moderate” Moslems in America who say nothing against the fundamentalists and terrorists among them, is just a fantasy of paranoid Westerners.

In fact, since there’s such an evident lack of fairness and justice in America (after all, look how prejudiced we are), and since Moslems believe in fairness and justice, I think we should triple our immigration quotas from Moslem countries.

Well, I don’t understand how you can say that Islam is the most violent religion on earth. Christianity has killed MILLIONS upon MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of people. The Crusades, the Inquisition, Pogroms and the Haulocaust all were perpetrated by European, Christian, white males, not Arabs or Indonesians. Even in French controlled Vietnam you had slaughters perpetrated by Vietnamese Catholics against non-believers. Christianity is the bloodiest religion on earth, hands down. Even today, you have Christian fundamentalists like Ann Coulter, speaking on Fox TV, calling for the mass conversion of non-Christian Arabs and the extermination of entire countries.

Islam is just another stupid identity movement along with all the other sick, superstitious religions. Until you realize this there will be no peace among mankind.

Here we have the standard anti-Christian litany from Mr. Gordon. Actually, the bloodiest religion or belief system - by far - is the one whose adherents constantly recite the litany above: leftist utopianism. Whether in the flavors of Communism (at least 120 million murdered to date), or Nazism and Fascism (approximately 21 million), leftist utopianism has generated mountains of corpses and rivers of blood that put everyone else to shame. The Crusaders, the Inquisition, and even the Muslims themselves are rank amateurs by comparison. If we count abortion, another favorite scheme, we can add another half billion or so to the total. To paraphrase the great leftist hero of the NY Times, Walter Duranty, the little people just don’t realize that one must break a few hundred million eggs to make that perfect utopian omlet. If you’re not an actual Marxist, Mr. Gordon, you should refrain from parroting a mindless litany that could be found in any Marxist propaganda piece.

Mr. Auster,

Your reply sounds a bit sarcastic and smug, however, please let me add these comments to yours.

“All those things I’ve been hearing about endemic violence wherever Moslems encounter non-Moslems from the Balkans to Indonesia, all the things I’ve been reading about “moderate” Moslems in America who say nothing against the fundamentalists and terrorists among them, is just a fantasy of paranoid Westerners.”
REPLY:
“All those things” you’ve been hearing are apparently one-sided reports. Please take the opportunity to review and join the mailing list of www.cair-net.org. Perhaps when you read their daily email for about a month or two maybe you will realize that there are many people out in the world that perpetrate violence and discrimination against Muslims from all nationalities as violence is perpetrated against others from those whom call themselves Muslims. You will also find that this Muslim organization consistently condemns actions of violence that are in direct conflict with Islam, as well as others. I could cite many incidents of violence being perpetrated against Muslims in America and else where, but they are archived on the CAIR site for those that care to read.

“In fact, since there’s such an evident lack of fairness and justice in America (after all, look how prejudiced we are), and since Moslems believe in fairness and justice, I think we should triple our immigration quotas from Moslem countries.”
REPLY:
Unfortunately, there is a lack of justice in America, but not necessarily from ALL Americans. As for prejudice in America, there exists more than plenty in some Americans and few in others. The prejudices don’t stop with religious affiliations. In fact, that is why there are anti-discrimination employment laws. If there were no discrimination we wouldn’t need those types of laws to correct people when their wrong.

As for Mr. Gordon’s comments, it is also true that some of those that profess Christianity are not very Christian in their actions.

Ms. A’La Yusef

first off i would like to state that i am highly appalled by the level of hatred, verses taken out of context and the number of incorrect statements presented in the aticle, i would like to direct you to a website that displays the moderate voice of islam, its teachings and the alleged inhumane nature of the Porphet Muhammad (pbuh); http://www.ijtihad.org/women2.htm and another article http://www.ilaam.net/Articles/Ayesha.html
Hope next time you would spend a bit more time presenting a more objective argument and less time finding weak quotations to support your hateful and intolerant beliefs.
peace,
murat

Sorry, murat, you’re stuck with a bad “product,” the Edsel of religions so to speak, and all the salesmanship in the world can’t change that.

As I’ve said before, I have nothing against Islam existing in its own lands. I acknowledge that there are many positive aspects of Islam and the Islamic way of life that have attracted people over the centuries. The problem is that Islam is only tolerable to the rest of the world when Islam is essentially powerless vis à vis the rest of the world. As soon as Islam acquires such power or even the hope of having such power, its true face, which is JIHAD, emerges. It follows that the permanent task of the non-Islamic nations is to make sure that the Islamic world remains powerless, or, if it has become powerful, to return it to a state of powerlessness. This is not a matter of hatred of Moslems. It is a matter of a rationally perceived threat to our freedom and existence.

Once again, I have no quarrel with Moslems. They are who they are and they can’t help being who they are. My quarrel is with my suicidal fellow Westerners who refuse to see the threat that Islam represents to us.

How would the Moslem countries react if there was an influx of millions of Christian Westerners into the Dar al-Islam? Would they welcome them? The very thought is laughable. So why should we Westerners welcome you Moslems coming by the millions into our lands? The only reason you think that we should welcome you is that WE OURSELVES HAVE PUT THAT THOUGHT IN YOUR HEADS. Without all the blather of modern liberalism coming from the West, you Moslems would never have dreamed that Western people would and should simply accept you into our midst. But now that we have accepted you here, that automatically triggers your own Islamic commitment to protect any foothold Islam has gained, to expand its numbers and power, and ultimately to subject the society to Shariah law. What triggered that dynamic was not anything YOU did. It was something WE did. So, once again, the real drama here, the real conflict, is not between Islam and the West. The real conflict is between the suicidal West and the non-suicidal West.

There are 1 Million American Muslims, and ever since President Bush fixed the weak security 29 months ago, there have not been attacks.

So, it’s not salesmanship. These are not violent people. Maybe writing out the number will clarify just what this means: 1,000,000 and since the security was fixed, there have been no attacks in 29 months. Once you truly grasp the number 1 Million, you’ll know that these are not violent people. 0 out of 1 million. That is a phenomenal record.

Here is a sentence from the article recommended by Murat:

“In the after math of September 11th, Islam, Muhammad and everything Muslim has come under close scrutiny in the America that seeks to blame Islam rather than American Foreign Policy for that horrible tragedy.”

Now think of the mentality of someone who sets out to persuade non-Moslems, such as the readers of VFR, to have a more accepting and respectful attitude toward Islam, and who does so by recommending to them an article that blames America rather than Al Qaeda for the September 11 attacks.

This is not, as I called it before, a valiant attempt to sell an unsalable product. This is crankhood.

That’s not the article murat was referring to.

Let’s say you weren’t the bigshot author, but just a normal guy who came across vfr.

Okay, you’d probably recommend vfr to folks. You’re certainly not endorsing every post on it (like you wouldn’t be endorsing posts from me or murat). Now, me, I’d definitely recommend vfr to folks because I think it’s amazing to get to talk to an author, from a guy who hangs around bookstores, reading snippets of everything, do I am in fact going to recommend vfr to folks even though I disagree with 95% of the posts (since i am NOT a conservative, traditionalist or postmodern or any other kind!)

Likewise, I bet $100 bucks right now (online gambling! very illegal!) that murat disagrees with that article that says america is to blame for the wtc massacre, but he recommends those sites because he agrees with the articles on Women’s Rights In Islam and Life of the Prophet (peace be upon him). Same thing as you or me recommending vfr (that is, if you weren’t the bigshot author hehe)

in response to lawrence, sorry brother but i think that you should brush up on your history. The civilization that was established in andulisia was one if the most tolerant societies, embracing all peoples, their belief systems and the idea that reason and science did not contradict one another. i highly advise to also read about the compact of medina, the first islamic state that was created by the prophet which was established with muslims and non-muslims alike. It was society where the constitution was mutually agrees upon and which was inspired by the Quran and His teachings.
The prophet muhammad (pbuh) stated that to hurt a christian is as if he hurt me. HE also stated that a persons belief is to be tolerated and respected. “To you your way and to us ours” surah al-kafiruun
I believe that when making your statements about muslims it is essential that you differentiate between what the religion calls for; peace, respect, tolerence and devotion to God, and what a number of muslim societies practice today. If one where to merely do this one could judge all christians by the acts of the crusades and the holocaust. To do so would be unjust and disservice to the christian religion.
peace and respect

This kind of “Islam as religion of tolerance” folderol will sell among liberals who are eager to believe in Islam as a wonderful, superior civilization. Since 9/11, PBS, for example, has had one program after another painting a glowing, celebratory portrait of Islam. Then of course our president praises Islam every chance he can get. Western liberals, also known as Kool-Aid drinkers and Eloi, eat this stuff up. But Murat should understand that he is not among the Kool-Aid drinkers here. Our views of Islam do not come from President Bush, or from PBS, or from politically correct American public schools, or from Moslem apologists, but from knowledgeable authors like Bat Ye’or who in her book on dhimmitude, “The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam,” tells the real story of Islam’s dealing with non-Islamic subject peoples over the centuries. Our views are also derived from observing the actual words and behavior of Moslem leaders and spokesmen, including many “moderate” Moslems, both before and after 9/11.

And then there are the basic facts about Islam that are available to everyone. Even a defender of Islam with whom I recently had an exchange here admitted that Islam requires the death penalty for any Moslem who adopts a different religion.

So I would suggest to Murat that unless he’s speaking to complete idiots, he drop this business about Islam being a “tolerant” religion. If you want to promote Islam, do it on some other basis.

I would like to thank Murat for giving me a badly needed laugh or two when he described Muslim tolerance in Medina. In fact, it is precisely in Arabia itself that Islam was least tolerant, completely forcing all Jews and Christians out of the peninsula. If he knew more about the history of his faith, he might have been able to mount some form of defense of its later conduct, which does include some epochs when Muslim behavior compared favorably with that of the RC Church, except —oops— towards Hindus! Of course, those epochs were quite a while ago!

peace

that article is bullshit

read the quran if u wanna knw what islam is.u will realise it is the truth. ask yourself why is islam the fastest growing religion if the above wa true?? why are more muslims going to mosques every week outnumbering the amount of christians going to church?

ask yourself? because the only reason for what your thinking is your society , family, race and culture . take a look outside the comfort zone you wont like wot u see but its true !!!!!!!

all i can say is wake up ,,well all the media is full of lies and speaks the furthest from the truth

come to peace come to islam

Very persuasive arguement Sister of Peace. Though your reasoning is flawed, 1: there are more Buddists than Muslims, 2: They go more often because there religion is one of devotion priding devotion more that Christianity which prides forgiveness. I don’t have opinion on the goal of peace for during college I had a very nice and peaceful Arabic Muslim roommate. Though I would say psycologically, the way in which the religion is force fed to the people, (such as in Bosnia where the Richer Muslim states threatened to remove any financial support unless more conventional Muslim practices were held) breeds a sense of we are doing what is right more that the relaxed approach of the Chirstian Church in this day and age. From this superior feeling and the feeling of we do what is right and they do what is wrong that though not said in the Quran is interprited (by some people)in the manner in which it is taught (force fed). From this the end result is a group (though admitably a very small porportion of Muslims) that feel that they must kill the westerners do to the fact (as they believe it) that all westerners are the “devil” (embodiment of everything that is wrong) I do not know the Muslim term for I am not muslim nor do I specifically research Islam. If the approach was turned from forced to relaxed gradually these groups would obsolve. Think of this, 78% of all terrorist acts are comitted by Muslims, though this is less that .05% of all Muslims, though less than 3% of all terrorist acts are comitted by christians which is less than .001% of all christians Obviously there is a difference somewhere. The question remains what is the difference?