What would you do if someone said “there can be no long-term safety for America short of the expulsion of the murderous [fill-in-the-blank] population from its territories?

One of the Hamas spokesmen was quoted as saying that children, too, could legitimately be used as martyr-bombers. There really seems to be something literally diabolical at work here—a complete and wilful inversion of values.

To take a stab at answering Chesterfield’s question of 1:25 p.m.; it would be a question of fact whether the expulsion of the [fill-in-the-blank] population was or wasn’t necessary to prevent the mass murder of Americans. If it were found to be necessary, would it still be morally unacceptable?

Chesterfield, my good man - tolerance for murderers is abominable cruelty towards women, children, and men who are not murderers.

I’ll try this again:

If you were to discover U.S. ethnic groups with murder rates higher than that of the Palestinians in Israel, would you call that good reason to forcibly expel them from American soil?

Here’s an interesting coincidence. The original posting of the article did not include any reference to child suicide bombers. I then discussed it with a friend, who said, “they won’t just use grandmothers, but children.” So I added the line about eight-year-old children. Then, when I re-loaded the page, Paul’s comment appeared about Hamas saying that children could be used as martyr-bombers.

The parallel isn’t exact; not only would the ethnic group have to commit murder at a high rate, but the murders would have to be part of a co-ordinated plan, approved by a majority or at least a very significant proportion of the ethnic group’s members, to replace the U.S. government with one that was religiously and ethnically more to their liking. Would you call that good reason to expel them? If not, what would it take?
I’m not, in fact, sure of where I stand on the expulsion question, but I don’t think it’s beyond the pale of consideration….

“Chesterfield, my good man - tolerance for murderers is abominable cruelty towards women, children, and men who are not murderers.”

Exactly, Shrewsbury. I think that’s what Chesterfield was driving at. Blacks and hispanics in this country kill far more Whites than Palestinians kill Israelis. So is what’s good for Israel also good for our own people? Is tolerance for murder abominable only in Israel? Or is it abominable here as well? And which is more important to White Americans?

Chesterfield’s last comment is so out of touch with what has been said in this discussion and with the actual reality that Israel is facing, that it’s hardly worth replying to. However, I will reply. Who said anything about a group whose murder rate is higher than the average? We’re talking about an entire population of Palestinians who either carry out, or passionately support, or passively support, the terrorist mass murder of Israelis, and who will keep carrying out that terrorist campaign until Israel ceases to exist, or until the Palestinians themselves are stopped. In my view, the only they can be stopped is by physically removing them from Israel.

No other country is in a situation like Israel’s. If people want to talk about the race problem or the murder problem in America, they should talk about that in its own terms, not piggy-back it on top of the Israeli issue.

I am, of course, on record as supporting large scale deportation of various classes of immigrants in the U.S. But we hopelessly confuse the discusion by throwing entirely different sets of facts together, suggesting equivalences that don’t exist in the real world.

Excerpted from the story as it ran in Toronto’s Globe and Mail: “Here is the good mother coming!” proclaimed a loudspeaker as the casket of 22-year-old Reem Raiyshi was carried in procession through Gaza City…”So long as we have an old man, a child, or a woman, you will not sleep,” one Hamas speaker warned Israelis during the procession…Little is known about what motivated Ms. Raiyshi. In a videotape released by Hamas, she said with a chilling smirk: “I always wanted to be the first woman to carry out a martyr attack, where parts of my body can fly all over.”

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20040116/GAZA16//?query=gaza

Clearly, what we’re dealing with here is a morbid death cult, unfortunately growing into a national mania. Again, if the same thing were taking place in America, against Americans, how would Chesterfield propose to respond?

Auster, I think your answer boils down to “yes.”

I’m not trying to understimate the situation in the Middle East, just asking questions:

Is nice Mrs. Nussbaum more likely to be blown up by Hamas visting her mother in Tel Aviv or shot by Black Moslems visiting her sister in Brooklyn?

If one murder is called terrorism and the other isn’t, does that make the second crime less evil?

Mr. Auster’s post of 2:13 introduces some admirable clarity to this discussion.

But to answer Chesterfield and Badonicus - it seems to me that Jewish people need to have an Israel that’s overwhelmingly Jewish, and that Americans of European descent need an America that’s overwhelmingly white. Above all, it would be good to see an end to the plague of ethnic rapes and murders, perpetrated by apparently intractable semi-savages, that now afflicts civilized people all over the world - in America, Europe, Australia, and in Israel. I hope Chesterfield and Badonicus agree.

Nicely stated, Shewsbury. I don’t think the two situations (the Palestinian murder campaign in Israel vs. Black on White murder and rape in the US) are exactly comparable - though some aspects - like the high degree of support from within the murderers’ group are eerily similar. Perhaps that’s why the sight of all the cheering Mohammedans in the wake of the 9/11/01 atrocity left me with the same sickening feeling that the sight of all the black churches cheering for OJ’s acquital did. I can’t help but wonder if we’d be treated to a similar specticle if some Nation of Islam types pulled off a big mass murder of whites somewhere.

It is certainly arguable that the black and Mexican thugs, rapists, and murderers have been waging a de-facto dirty war against the white population with the tacit and not-so-tacit support of minority leaders and a large segment of the minority population (not to mention the ruling oligarchy and its minions). However, as these criminals are usually thugs first and foremost, they often victimize members of their own community even more than they do whites, which contasts with the situation in Israel. The other Arabs murdered by Hamas, et al are either the remainder of the Christian population or those acccused of collaboration with the Israelis.

Carl is correct. But with all the dissimilarities, one element stands out in every case: the disastrous effects of having a semi-savage group grotesquely crammed into the same society as a civilized group - especially where the civilized elite have turned against their own kind and are supportive of the savages.

Carl and Shrewsbury has put it well. I have sometimes thought of writing an article on the parallels between the two situations (not ignoring the enormous differences—blacks aren’t setting off bombs in restaurants and buses), especially as regards the cowardly, relativistic attitude of the majority.

I can’t help but wonder if we’d be treated to a similar specticle if some Nation of Islam types pulled off a big mass murder of whites somewhere.

You mean the LA Riots? Or should I say “LA Rebellion”.

especially where the civilized elite have turned against their own kind and are supportive of the savages.

Yes, and unfortunately that civilized elite is disproportionately comprised of the same group that is found in Israel. Jews are suicidally left wing, and I think it might be heritable. In the US they provide more than 50% of the Democrat funds:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A41204-2003Dec6?language=printer

” Jews provided at least half the money donated to the DNC in the 1998 and 2000 election cycles.”

Latest reports are that the suicide murder bomber mother was sent into action to avoid being murdered by her family in an “honor” killing, after she had cuckolded her Hamas husband in an adulterous affair with another Hamas supporter. If true, it would be more evidence of barbarity.

Sanger -

Jews also donate about that much money to Republicans. Similar left-wing elements exist throughout European nations which have considerably smaller populations of Jews. Is Liberalism heritable there or rather is the West experiencing a general breakdown that has possibly afflicted Jews first?

- DG

There is a good contrast of Hamas with other terrorist organizations around the world at http://www.nationalreview.com/rose/rose200403290903.asp

The gist is that Hamas has no strategy other than “kill Jews.” They have no ultimate goal other than to completely destroy the state of Israel, which they will fail to do. Other terrorist organizations have had actual political goals that might conceivably be achieved, but Hamas knows only killing and failure.

And according to Buchanan, writing in April 2002, Israel is “the mirror image of Hamas and Hezbolah.” Somebody ought to write to Buchanan and ask him if he still believes that.