Is Islam better than liberalism?

Brandon F. has an unusual view of the Islam problem, which he aired this past January and others, including me, objected to strongly. This current entry began when he complimented my article on “The common project of liberals and atheists,” adding that he doesn’t always agree with me. I said I didn’t remember offhand what he disagreed with me about, but that he shouldn’t hesitate to express his disagreements. Below is his reply.

Brandon F. writes:

The only thing I suppose I disagree with you on is the Islam problem. I think every word you publish online about the encroachment of Islam into Western countries is a waste of space. If Westerners have an identity and understand who they really are and how their lack of identity and belief in objective truth is destroying their civilization they would act appropriately.

I understand you dedicate much space to subjects like the liberals and atheists post and the Nietzsche post. These are the meat and potatoes of an intellectual approach to understanding the modern Western dilemma. Demagoguery may work for some people who already have that inclination but it really accomplishes little in my opinion.

I have problems with Islam myself and as an Orthodox Christian I am well aware of the oppression that can be inspired by their faith.

It seems to me, however, that we should recognize their dedication to their faith. There are more peaceful and even mystical interpretations of Islam that I have found beautiful and inspiring. Have you ever listened to or read any substantive Islamic apologetics? It may not engender a conversion or love for the faith but it may smooth the hostile edges you have for a faith that calls a spade a spade and is understandably hostile to foreign control and influence.

I wish my faith had such zeal (it used to).

So if Muslims are moving into countries that have lost their will to live then so be it. I love my Western heritage but see no need in trying to force feed a terminally ill patient (if it is terminally ill) to prolong the suffering. The West is nearly completely decadent ,so maybe Islam is the antidote? As I have said before I would much rather live under (the proper) Islamic (not Taliban style which is not the standard as I understand it) rule than under the rule of liberals who seek to take control of peoples lives in a much more sinister and diabolical way.

I am not taking a liberal approach to Islam and the immigration of Muslims but rather a radically conservative one (I think).

“As it is better for a part of the body that contains purulent decay to be burned than to continue as it is, thus is it also better for a depraved man to die than continue to live.” (Iamblichus from The Pythagorean Sentences of his Exhortation to Philosophy.)

Couldn’t the above quote apply to civilizations as well?

Forgive my rambling style here. I am trying to be honest to you and myself about where I am on this subject and am ready and willing to accept and consider whatever criticism you have.

LA replied:

Yes, now I remember, we’ve had one or two threads where you stated your view on this and people were surprised by it and you came in for some criticism. It certainly is an unusual view that you have. This is a fuller explanation of where you’re coming from.

Brandon writes:

I hope the comments that will descend from this opinion and your commentary don’t take on the usual fulminations of “Muslims did this and Muslims did that.” The correct approach in my opinion is “This is who we still are and this is why and here is how we get our culture back on track.” It is just too easy to place the blame on the bogey man.

We are in a position already of looking back historically and philosophically to understand what or who we were. It is no longer a experience of the here and now like the flowering of Medieval Christianity. We are in a nearly totally degenerate and anti-Traditional society composed of anti-intellectuals who will not hear philosophical arguments over their i-pods. If you suggest that some camel riding, Koran toting anti-liberal is going to take their i-pod and their porn then you might get their attention.

Someone needs to demonstrate to me how the civilizational organism that was or is the West is still worth saving without appealing to a liberal or technological argument. The only argument weaker than the previous two is the argument that somehow our liberal society is threatened by some beheading turban wearing lunatics. That is really what Geert Wilders is doing, right? Where is his Western identity beyond his ridiculously dyed hair and his appeal to the anti-liberal tendencies of Islam?

LA replies:

Brandon’s argument is different and interesting. Of course, I totally reject what he is saying. He is both too anti the liberal West, and disastrously uncomprehending of the Islamic program vis a vis non-Muslims. Now, it is certainly the case that our civilization at present is under the control of evil forces that intend its destruction. But to write off our civilization for that reason, instead of trying to win it back, is terribly wrong. Basically Brandon is saying that because the West has been taken over by the anti-Western left, we might as well let it be taken over by anti-Western Islam, which at least believes in some deity. Ironically, though he opposes the left so much he would rather that the West come under the power of Islam than continue under the power of the left, he has in effect signed on to the leftist program which intends the very same thing he intends, i.e., the surrender of the West to Islam. His position is thus objectively an alliance with both the left and the Muslims against the West.

What’s the correct position? To oppose both the left and Islam, until we are destroyed, or until we win.

Brandon writes:

How is Islam anti-Western exactly? Other than being anti-liberal or other than being anti-Israel or anti-Western occupation? What non-liberal institutions would Islam destroy? I guess you could say the churches although I would say some of them are liberal anyway. There are Muslim countries with healthy Christian and Jewish communities.

Please know that I am only trying to get at the truth here. I am not interested in promoting Islam. If the West decided to re-emerge from the ashes and fight I would fight. Since we know that won’t happen we should think objectively.

You still haven’t illustrated to me what about the West is worth saving. What, beyond the few Traditionalist thinkers like you, indicates there is a potential for rebirth?

Like I said in my emails: Demonstrate who and what we still are with respect to Western culture historically and how they (presumably institutional forms like universities, arts organizations, etc.) are only superficially decadent and reformable.

LA replies:

Re your first set of questions, if you, after reading this site and presumably other Islam-critical sites for years, have to ask how Islam would actually threaten our society, I would say, with no intention to sound disrespectful, that your ignorance of the nature, doctrines, laws, history, strategies, and goals of Islam is close to impenetrable, and I can’t correct it in a single comment.

Re your question about what positive things does the West still stand for, you are not seeing the whole picture, you are seeing the ideological side of the West, and the sexual decadence side of the West, you’re missing the underlying substance of the West which is still there and can be brought back. I would say that you don’t have a balanced view of things. Your eyes are overwhelmed by the negative.

March 3

Brandon F. writes:

Well I don’t think you are correct in your assertion that the goal of liberals is the turning over of the West to Islam. They think that by allowing them into our society and convincing them that our society (the liberal one which is what we are) is the best way. Its the Liberal Globalization Project.

My job sometimes takes me to the campus of a very prestigious university at all times of the night. Recently, I went to a dormitory where I witnessed scores of loud, brash, and very drunk students. There was only one who was sober that I saw: a young Malaysian girl in her hijab waiting for a ride (I guess her father is going to wait to behead her until after she gets her degree and comes back home.)

This is a great analogy for Westerners. The white girls were doing their best to look like sluts and vomit on the well trimmed lawn.

LA replies:

Re your first point, I’m not saying that turning over the West to Islam is their conscious, explicit goal. I’m saying it’s the logical endpoint of everything they’re doing, and when that endpoint comes, they will go along with it. Here are two articles I’ve written on this:

Western liberals’ ultimate embrace of Islam

Westerners who long to submit themselves to Islam (or to Mexicans)

Re your second point, the present Western society is so depraved that your reaction of utter disgust is understandable. But I think you go too far, by taking that true insight about the West and making it the whole thing, or making it bigger in the scheme of things than it really is.

I’m reminded of a story I’ve probably told before. In the early 1980s, I was doing research for a liberal legal organization into the situation in El Salvador. I got immersed in the recent history of the place, the situation of the death squads. My reaction was one of horror that we had anything to do with a government that had death squads operating under it. I felt we should simply cut off relations with the El Salvador government

Needless to say, the Reagan administration did not follow my (uncommunicated) advice. The U.S. kept backing the El Salvador government, there were elections, the government won, the Communists lost, the Communists lost support, the death squad problem went away, and El Salvador survived as a non-Communist country. But if my view, based on pure moral outrage, had been followed, El Salvador would probably have gone Communist. By staying with a bad situation, the Reagan administration gave El Salvador the time it needed to work things out.

The lesson is, there’s more going on in any situation than just the bad aspect that makes us disgusted. There’s more to the West than the repulsive decadence of the elite college campuses and the entertainment media. We need to keep a certain perspective on things.

Brandon replies:

Thanks. I think I just needed to hear something like this.

Charles T. writes:

Brandon wrote: “If the West decided to re-emerge from the ashes and fight I would fight. Since we know that won’t happen we should think objectively.”

Two thoughts here.

First, Brandon has already conceded defeat and I think this is a mistake. The West has not even begun to fight effectively yet. There are areas of resistance. Geert Wilders. The Freedom Party is now the most popular party in the Netherlands (as pointed out at VFR just yesterday). The BNP. VFR and a host of other blogs dedicated to this subject. Displaced English workers rioting in the UK over immigrants receiving first place in line for jobs. Etc. The resentment is building. There are plenty of people in the states who are alarmed at the advance of Islam. However, we—at this point—are disorganized and somewhat de-moralized at what is happening to our countries. We need organization. We need leaders who will stand up for us and our own people. We need people to raise their voices. All of this is in its infancy.

Second, in the previous discussion we had with Brandon several weeks ago, I believe he mentioned he had children. This is the best reason we must get involved and raise our voices about Islam and the overall decline of the West. Our children! Their children and their children and so forth. The entirety of our generations are at stake. Do we want them to be Islamic? Or do we want them to something else? If we concede defeat now, then we know what the outcome will be. However, if we try to do something about this, then we most certainly have a chance to avoid defeat.

Brandon, we need you to stand with us. Pick up the phone, pick up your pen and get started.

Posted by Lawrence Auster at March 02, 2009 05:52 PM | Send